There's just no excuse for the airline to deny these folks their flight. None.
There should also be a penalty for the two girls who started this whole thing.
'Safest' seat remarks gets Muslim family kicked off planeA Muslim family removed from an airliner Thursday after passengers became concerned about their conversation say AirTran officials refused to rebook them, even after FBI investigators cleared them of wrongdoing.
Atif Irfan said federal authorities removed eight members of his extended family and a friend after passengers heard them discussing the safest place to sit and misconstrued the nature of the conversation.
Irfan, a U.S. citizen and tax attorney, said he was "impressed with the professionalism" of the FBI agents who questioned him, but said he felt mistreated when the airline refused to book the family for a later flight.
AirTran Airways late Thursday said they acted properly and that the family was offered full refunds and can fly with AirTran again.
"AirTran Airways complied with all TSA, law enforcement and Homeland Security directives and had no discretion in the matter," the company said in a prepared statement.
Family members said FBI agents tried to work it out with the airline, but to no avail.
"The FBI agents actually cleared our names," said Inayet Sahin, Irfan's sister-in-law. "They went on our behalf and spoke to the airlines and said, 'There is no suspicious activity here. They are clear. Please let them get on a flight so they can go on their vacation,' and they still refused."
"The airline told us that we can't fly their airline," Irfan said.
The dispute occurred about 1 p.m. Thursday as AirTran flight 175 was preparing for takeoff from Reagan National Airport outside of Washington, D.C., on a flight destined for Orlando, Florida.
Atif Irfan, his brother, their wives, a sister and three children were headed to Orlando to meet with family and attend a religious conference.
"The conversation, as we were walking through the plane trying to find our seats, was just about where the safest place in an airplane is," Sahin said. "We were (discussing whether it was safest to sit near) the wing, or the engine or the back or the front, but that's it. We didn't say anything else that would raise any suspicion."
The conversation did not contain the words "bomb," "explosion," "terror" or other words that might have aroused suspicion, Irfan said.
"When we were talking, when we turned around, I noticed a couple of girls kind of snapped their heads," said Sobia Ijaz, Irfan's wife. "I kind of thought to myself, 'Oh, you know, maybe they're going to say something.' It didn't occur to me that they were going to make it such a big issue."
Some time later, while the plane was still at the gate, an FBI agent boarded the plane and asked Irfan and his wife to leave the plane. The rest of the family was removed 15 or 20 minutes later, along with a family friend, Abdul Aziz, a Library of Congress attorney and family friend who was coincidentally taking the same flight and had been seen talking to the family.
After the FBI interviewed family members, it released them, Irfan said.
AirTran spokesman Tad Hutcheson said the incident began when some passengers reported hearing suspicious remarks by a woman and alerted flight attendants. Two Federal Air Marshals, who were on board the flight, notified law enforcement about the security-related issue, AirTran said.
After the family and Aziz were taken for questioning, the remaining 95 passengers were taken off of the plane and rescreened, along with the crew and the baggage, AirTran said.
Irfan said he believes his family is owed an apology.
"Really, at the end of the day, we're not out here looking for money. I'm an attorney. I know how the court system works. We're basically looking for someone to say... 'We're apologizing for treating you as second-class citizens.'"
"We are proud Americans," Sahin said. "You know we decided to have our children and raise them here. We can very easily go anywhere we want in the world, but you know we love it here and we're not going to go away, no matter what."
Aziz said there is a "very strong possibility" he will pursue a civil rights lawsuit.
"I guess it's just a situation of guilt by association," Aziz said. "They see one Muslim talking to another Muslim and they automatically assume something wrong is going on."
If you were planning on blowing up an airplane, why would bring your whole family along and talk about which seats were safest? It defies common sense.
I agree. I find it hard to believe that there is so much ignorance and fearful bigotry out there.
Bull shit why would some one say lets check for safest seat on airplane. Irfan tax attorney should have know that airplanes are safe than road travel?, which is common sense.
I say the airlines did the right thing.
So Jay let me get this straight, anyone whether he be black, white, chinese, muslims, Japanese or whoever should be kicked off a plane if they discuss which seats are the safest? What next, kick anyone off who complain about ticket price, who want vegetarian meals, who complain about George Bush, etc, etc, etc. No wonder Muslims (and most other people) have such hatred for the West. You cry because you lost 2 towers and 2,000 people and a couple of airplanes. Nobody cries when muslims have entire neighborhoods bombed to kingdom come and dismissed as "collateral damage".
Unfortunately, muslims are responsible for the clear majority of terrorist attacks, and that carries consequences. When you can achieve paradise by killing yourself for that misbegotten god allah, I wouldn't think a true believer would worry about bringing the family along. Western security is getting tighter, it may be an excellent way to get around suspicion and through security. All around the world, the borders of the islamic world are bloody with its victims.
The girls should be punished? I almost thought you were a senator with such a well thought out comment. Have you considered the possible consequences of that?
With the actions of Isreal the past few days, there are protests going on and active calling for retribution against both Isreal, and the U.S.. The girls did the right thing in bringing what they thought was a security threat to light so it could be investigated. I know I only have one life, and I would gamble it either.
It's a shame that people live in such a sense of paranoia. You are more likely to be murdered by your neighbor or a family member than you are a terrorist.
Em - it's obvious that you have never had unfounded paranoia and hatred directed towards you so blatently. Experiencing something like that is incredibly shameful. Is it okay just because they aren't Christian like you?
Jay - So you agree that the airline was correct in not letting them book another flight after the FBI cleared them? Where's the commensense in that?
Jon,
Thank you for the incredible laugh this early in the morning where I am. I absolutely loved the assumption about never having been the object of hate before in my life, it cracked me up. If you'd like, I'd be happy to expand upon my life if you like, but safe to say, I am a member of a minority group *laugh* (I am Christian though, cheers. I also frequently say I'm associated with pastafarianism as well though, since I believe science classrooms should only have science taught and not creationism.)
Have you ever researched Islam? You can evaluate it in a few ways, truthfully. To keep it basic, for now, you can look at the results of having Islamic law in a country in the countless failed states throughout the world. The lack of rights, free speech, a system that creates an underclass (dhimmis), etc.
You can also evaluate it by looking at the actual religious teachings. Women are property, and the majority of the residents of Hell are women. In Saudi Arabia, it took an act of a judge to stop the marriage of a 5 year old. How many actually go through without court intervention? The active killing of people is allowed. Of course, we all know that the people that do this 'misunderstand' the idealogy. If that's the case, how come it happens so bloody often?? Why are the borders of Islam so bloody? Do they really have such bad neighbors throughout the whole world?
Remember, in Britian and in Switzerland *right now,* there is a push for a seperate court system for muslims. This doesn't scare the heck out of you? If it doesn't, why not?
It was right to take them off to question them. It was wrong to not allow them to fly on the airline after they had been cleared of any wrongdoing.
I am Christian. However, I've studied Islam and believe that mainstream Islam has some good, core vales. Radical Muslims are not the majority of the Muslims in the world today. In fact, I am LDS (Mormon) and don't appreciate when people think that because of what a few extremists in the Warren Jeffs case did, all mormons are like that. The FLDS church broke off from mainstream mormonism more than 100 years ago. It is the same with Muslims. The majority are peaceful, good people.
Stefanie,
The only problem with that analysis is that there are examples where it's just not so. I guess I would question as to why there are very few Jewish and Christian people left in the countries that are majority muslim. Remember, Judea was the birthplace of Christianity, yet there are almost no Christians there. How come? One reason, is the regulation of them to second class citizens in muslim controlled countries. Churches cannot be built without extreme difficulty, and you cannot discuss your faith in any way, as you may be guilty of a crime under Islam if you do. Recently, the Coptics in Egypt faced off against muslim mobs bent on destroying a church they were trying to form. At one time, Egypt was almost entirely Christian.
I suppose I would question the reason for this: is Islam such a dynamic faith that people convert because of the beauty of it, or is it more likely the ways in which is appeals to the basic instincts (ie, you aren't regulated to second class status so have good prospects, and it gives men a reason to basically, dominate women.)
Again though, if the majority are peaceful, why did the police in Belgium (I believe, but would have to check to be sure) recently have to secure Jewish communities against protesters/rioters? Why, after watching followers of Islam butcher 150 people in Mumbai, did Pakastani protesters only protest the Indian government, and not the acts of these supposed misunderstanders of Islam?
There are about 1 billion Muslims in countries all over the world today. It's the second largest after Christianity. That said, the small percentage that are what you would call extremists are a lot "louder" in the news than mainstream muslims so they seem to represent Islam when they really don't. Besides that, the middle east has always been a violent area since the time of Christ, and perpetrators of the violence have been of various religions, including Christianity. Speaking of...basically all of Western Europe is mostly Roman Catholic now, and it hasn't always been. So what you said about Islam usurping power in that region isn't unique to them.
On a different note, how often do you hear of a Muslim American individual or family being any kind of threat to their neighbors or their country in the name of their god? Yet there are 5 million muslims in the U.S.
Stefanie,
That's true about the spread of Christianity into Western Europe, but the only issue is that occured over 1,500 years ago and in a different time. The perpetuators of violence in Islam are more often than not, educated individuals who are following 'pure' islam. They're not misinterpreting the religion in any way, their actions are supported by the idealogy they follow.
The major issue with islam is that there will never be a reformation period like occured in the Christian faith, which means that the violent aspects of the quaran will always be held to. The quaran is perfect, the prophet is perfect, everything he did was perfect. This means that child marriage is dandy since the prophet did it, that breaking treaties is okay because the prophet did it, it's fine to murder people whole leave the faith, etc..
As to muslims in the U.S. today: Ask them if our current common law is better than shariah law. What do you think the answer would be? Are you in favor of the implementation of shariah law in the U.S.? Part of the muslim faith is to continually pursue that goal, and you can see it occuring in various European nations at the moment where the muslim population has grown over the past few decades.
Timothy McVeigh was a Branch Davidian, a group that descended from seventh-day adventists when the founder said that the religion had become too lax and encouraged everyone to return to the "pure" religion. Perhaps we should be kicking seventh-day adventists off planes.
Sound as ridiculous to you as it does to me?
With the only difference being that acts of murder perpetuated by muslim extremists are almost a daily event around the world. In addition, history supports that muslims push out other faiths and other people and are intolerant at best. Again, why are there few Christians in Istanbul, which was once a center of Christianity? Evaluate the various muslim countries and those in transition right now in SE Asia. What's occuring there now?
I think my favorite case of this was the yemini man who murdered a jew recently claiming he was being the conscience of the government, which should have been doing it. What he did, was supported by the islamic idealogy.
But then seventh-day adventists claim to be heirs of protestant groups such as baptists, methodists, etc. Maybe its THEM we should be worried about. But they descended from Catholicism, so maybe its really the ideaology of the Catholic church that caused the Oklahoma City bombing. To discriminate against a group of people because of their beliefs due to the actions of a minority of that group who are extremists is ignorant and commonly called bigotry.
Like I said, the middle east has always been an area of violence perpetuated by a minority of whoever controls it at the moment whether that be Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc.
Where else in the world is acts of violence being perpetuated by muslims an almost daily event?
Mainstream Islam idealogy does not support it. And claims from the minority of Islam followers who are extremists that they are following their "pure" religion are simply not true.
I think the whole matter should have been dealt with on the plane. A short assessment by the flight attendants purely by way of common sense could have made everyone realize this was nothing more than a casual conversation which I myself have had during the seating procedure.
The reality is that your chances of dying in a plane accident (see chart above)is 1 in 20,000 and the odds increase to 1 in several million if the cause of that plane crash is terrorism. So the fear level the girls and others were operating under were ridiculously absurd.
Equally absurd is the concept that people of Muslim persuasion should have to walk around being guarded in their casual conversation because some hysterical morons are going to think they are terrorists. That is nothing but pure bigotry in action and is at least as dangerous as any terrorist threat.
Furthermore, the central question here is why the airline refused to allow the family to reboard after the FBI had cleared them. There simply was no reasonable basis for that.
Stefanie,
Your basic idea seems to be 'well, there are good muslims here who don't trouble their neighbors, therefor, Islam is fine.' There were also good followers of nazism back in the 1930s. There are good dictators in history also.
Unfortunately though, it's the idealogy itself that is the problem, and occasionaly, they have to be fought against. The islamic idealogy goes against almost all of the founding principles of our Western civilization. Equal rights are unheard of, the freedom of speech is unheard of (look at the push in the UN right now to limit critics of Islam,) freedom of religion is unheard of, etc. How do we reconcile these issues with a growing muslim population? In looking at Europe, are there issues? Will it ever become an issue here? Look at Malaysia, and its struggle to balance muslims vs non-muslims over the past few decades.
I absolutely agree that there are good muslims, as people, out there. Unfortunately though, their faith doesn't seem to be reconciable with Western values. So what is the answer?
Hmm, as to daily attacks outside of the ME:
Darfur comes to mind without any research at all, the recent threat from the militia groups in Pakistan that ALL girls' schools be closed within the next 15 days (well, 13 now I believe,) the civil war in the sudan, the doctor from England being held hostage by her relatives in Bangladesh because she wanted to remain in the West, the mumbai attacks certainly, seperatist groups in Indonesia attacking Buddists and others, the western provinces of China, the copts in Egypt (I count Egypt as part of Africa, I'm not sure about you,) etc. This is just off the top of my head in truth, but I'll give you a detailed list if you really would like. You can find them yourself though in truth.
You asked what the answer is. There can be no answer when ignorance and bigotry exist
(which by the way, is the foundation of the violence that is perpetuated by Muslim extremists). I'm done.
With the only difference being that acts of murder perpetuated by muslim extremists are almost a daily event around the world.
There are murders daily by extremists of every religious stripe...what get reported here are mostly the Muslim ones. All true believers are dangerous psychopaths that represent tiny percentages of any major religion.
In addition, history supports that Muslims push out other faiths and other people and are intolerant at best.
Oh really? Sounds like you're describing the founding of the US when millions of indigenous peoples were slaughtered out of hand and what children survived, even in modern times, were punished for speaking their native tongue or practicing their religion. All exclusionary religions that claim to bearers of the sole truth tend to push out competing religions once they gained a mjority in the population.
Intolerance is exactly what was going on that plane, so don't talk to me about intolerance.
Again, why are there few Christians in Istanbul, which was once a center of Christianity?
Ever hear of the Ottoman empire? Ever hear of the Crusades when the Moors were driven out of Spain?
Evaluate the various Muslim countries and those in transition right now in SE Asia. What's occurring there now?
Ok, I'll bite...what?
Stefanie,
The ironic part of your post was when you mentioned ignorance. Did you do any of the research I suggested? Did you go and look at outside sources and sit back and think about the impact of islam on various areas around the world, or did you jump for the easy way of saying 'well, I'm enlightened, you're not, I'm done.' You never posted any real information here, outside of 'muslims are good people.' I agreed with that, muslims are good people. What about their faith?
Please, please, please, do your own research and look at the whole world. In truth, I read newspapers from all over the world nearly every day (and drive my husband crazy doing it. *laugh*) Look into islam, as an idealogy, and decide for yourself if it's a good force in today's world.
Have a happy 2009.
Christians and Muslims alike are exclusionary religions. Both are equally capable of producing dangerous thinking...such as that of the bigoted girls on the plane that started the issue we are addressing in the first place.
Cul,
So your answer to dealing with a current problem is to say that there were problems one hundred years ago, so don't bother addressing the ones today. *shrug* How do you want me to respond? Did the natives get short changed and treated horrible. Yep. Can I rectify that? Nope. Can I hopefully help prevent the spread of the same atrocities happening in the future. Yep, and here I am.
The moors though? You mean that armies of islam shouldn't have been driven back from Europe after fighting their way across Northern Africa? Mmm, I guess the Germans shouldn't have been driven out of Western Russia either.
As for SE Asia, look it up. Do some research. I have enough of my own homework to do without doing yours.
How are the courts working in those countries? Are there calls for seperate muslim states? Are the cultures of those countries being hurt in any form? Are people who aren't muslim allowed to practice their culture freely? Have problems developed?
You need to study some history. Start with the Moors. They were in what is now Spain for how long again? You sound like a troll.
Cul,
Ahhh, okay, the moors were there longer, so they're more entitled to the land? How long must a conquerer control a terrority before it's not longer in style to remove them? With your statement earlier about native Americans, I guess the two hundred some-odds years of the U.S. isn't enough, but 800 or so is fine. What's the benchmark?
Troll? Maybe, in your eyes, and that's perfectly dandy to me.
Btw, I meant to ask when you mentioned the moors earlier: Do you support the call by islamic clerics to reclaim the Iberian penninsula, as they do Isreal?
How long must a conqueror control a territory before it's not longer in style to remove them?
I'd say when the occupation of an area has a full blown culture in place with major city architecture and governments and so-on. The Moors were fully established well before the advent of the Crusades.
Your insistence that Islam is somehow more repressive or exclusionary than Christianity is just malarkey of the highest order. I can match you tit for tat if you want to compare any ruthlessness and violent stanzas between the Koran and the Bible.
Troll? Maybe, in your eyes, and that's perfectly dandy to me.
I'm just saying...your arguments seem set in stone and unresponsive to logic or evidence.
Do you support the call by Islamic clerics to reclaim the Iberian penninsula, as they do Israel?
Of course not. See that's what I mean by troll talk...taking an example to the extreme to present a strawman argument.
Cul,
Thank you for the second bright spot of my day. When have I been advocating Christianity? Earlier, I mentioned I associated with a group that is anti-Christian, in terms of having Christian influence in the public sphere (ie, education.) I'm not advocating that islam is more violent than hardcore Christianity. I am advocating that in islam, the public and private is one. Islam, as an idealogy, gives forms for government, courts, relationships, classes for people equal to the caste system, etc.. There is no such thing as seperation of church and state, which I thank God for everyday, we have in Western civilization.
It's great that you can match me tit for tat about violent passages in the bible vs. the quaran. How come those in the bible are no longer adhered to? Why are they adhered to in islam? What are the reasons for this? Any ideas?
So, I'm guessing that you don't support a reclaiming of Spain by the followers of islam. Now, Israel has their own culture, government, etc. Do you favor the removal of Isreal, or have they been there long enough that the territory belongs to them?
Have to say too, I liked your added comment about logic. I'm a mathematician, and use logic nearly every day in my life. It made me laugh a bit :)
I assume by your logic too, that Stefanie above was a troll. She used the extreme example of Tim McV in her posts. Is it appropriate to call her a troll?
No because she used it as an example to show how ridiculous it sounded. She was being facetious.
When have I been advocating Christianity?
Who said you were? I was using the Christianity as a counterpoint example to your assertions about Islam. Are you certain you're a mathematician?
Do you favor the removal of Isreal, or have they been there long enough that the territory belongs to them?
No, I am not in favor of removing Israel. But that nothing to do with either the topic at hand or any time scale involved.
There is no such thing as seperation of church and state, which I thank God for everyday, we have in Western civilization.
You mean now we do...wasn't always a separation you know. And there are secular states with Muslim majorities. Iraq was one before we invaded. I am against some of Islam's political manifestations, especially those regarding unity between religion and state.
But lets get back on topic, shall we?
Your insistence that Islam is somehow more repressive or exclusionary than Christianity is just malarkey of the highest order.
You attributed that to me, which implies that I'm advocating for Christianity, which I haven't been doing.
Truthfully, you were the one that brought the conquering of areas into the discussion. I was addressing that point. Again, I've never said that Christians were more/less violent than muslims.
I believe islam is a failed idealogy and a failed form of government. It leads to things that are in contradiction to Western civilization, which I stated earlier (ie, against women's rights, etc.) (btw, just had to say, that stating that Iraq was an example of a secular state was interesting... you're example is that of a dictatorship, not as decided by the people of the country. That doesn't do much to act as a counterpoint to my assertion that there is no such thing as seperation of church and state in the islamic idealogy. Seperation of church and state is a key component to modern Western civ, wouldn't you agree? How are we going to resolve that problem as muslim communities grow in Western countries?)
So where should the topic go to get back on topic?
To the fact that a family was not allowed to fly with an airline after being cleared from any wrongdoing by the fbi. Be it Muslim, Jew, Christian, Hindu, or Buddhist...that was wrong.
Exactly.
Mn,
I agree, it was wrong. The girls however, weren't wrong for telling their suspicions to the employees of the airline, or the airline for alerting officials.
I tend to be cautious though, and could understand, in light of what's happening in the ME right now, why the airline erred on the side of caution. I'm not agreeing with it, but I understand about how the situation came about. In the 1940s, German, Japanese and Italian citizens had to deal with inconviences, and in the 2000s, so do muslims. The world is not, nor ever will be, fair.
ps - curious for those here: how did you feel about the headscarf issue from the Georgian courthouse a week or two ago?
The girls however, weren't wrong for telling their suspicions to the employees of the airline, or the airline for alerting officials.
The girls were being hysterical and reacting to a media and bigotry induced set of fears. Their and the airlines overreaction is at the heart of this discussion.
how did you feel about the headscarf issue from the Georgian courthouse a week or two ago?
same bigoted stupidity.
how did you feel about the headscarf issue from the Georgian courthouse a week or two ago?
same bigoted stupidity.
Very simple analysis, good job. So, you're saying that there should be different standards for different people? Most news reports stated that the judge in question in this case had the requirement of no head coverings for all people. Why the exception for the muslim woman in the story?
The girls were reacting to a real threat to their safety. How many other groups have hijacked airplanes recently? If my safety was at risk, I'd rather, again, err on the side of caution, as these girls did. Again, this goes back to the muslim faith, which leads to educated people committing acts of murder. We're not supposed to react to this, and just say 'oh well, it's their religion! Happy happy happy!' No thanks. Hmm, I'm minded of the line from the cop in 'Inside Man' who said 'I'd rather die an old bigot than die a young idealist,' or something like that.
Amazingly, while in security lines at the airports, I'm almost *always* selected for additional screening. I comply without a problem, but can't believe the stupidity of the situation, as there aren't many black-Irish women thus far that have seized airplanes.
Funny Cul, how you talk about logic, but never actually explain your thought processes or anything like that. Should there be lower security standards at the airports? What changes should be made? Are muslims going to fully integrate into the U.S. culture, or should they maintain their own? Thoughts?
Alas, the workday is over, but this has been fun. Again, happy new year all, and thanks for the entertainment on a boring January 2nd day.
Why the exception for the muslim woman in the story?
Shouldn't be. That's what I found stupid and bigoted. Bigotry isn't always against the object of that bigotry.
The girls were reacting to a real threat to their safety.
There was no real threat now was there?
How many other groups have hijacked airplanes recently?
Not many...two? And in the US? None.
If my safety was at risk, I'd rather, again, err on the side of caution, as these girls did.
At the expense of innocent people...and that's the exact point. Shoot first out of fear.
Again, this goes back to the muslim faith, which leads to educated people committing acts of murder.
Like those who shoot abortion clinic workers?
Funny Cul, how you talk about logic, but never actually explain your thought processes or anything like that.
Sure I do.
Should there be lower security standards at the airports? What changes should be made? Are muslims going to fully integrate into the U.S. culture, or should they maintain their own? Thoughts?
Mostly just lighten up and and react to real situations rather than react hysterically based on some fearfully speculated reality.
The perfect equivalent to me is that things are at the same level as women clutching their purses tighter to them when they pass any black man on the street. It isn't that people haven't been mugged by black men, but the incidence is so rare as to not be a rational reason for their reaction. Know what I mean?
Happy New Year to you too and thanks for stopping by, em :)
These were AMERICAN Muslims!! This was a family! There was nothing (including their conversation) that would indicate or suggest a threat. The content of their discussion is one I've had many times on numerous carriers with people from around the globe.
The most telling point in all of this is that Timothy McVeigh could have loudly discussed the merits of survivability based on seat assignment and, after ascertaining his ethnicity, no one would have had a second thought.
Dang that's a lot of big words. Hope I used 'em right!!
My sentiments exactly. Well done...nice summation and condensation of the point. (And, oh yeah, you did great with the voibage.)